Ravi and Prisella, Day 4

Ravi and Priscella
Day 4
I missed Days 2 and 3 cuz of Teaching Sked.
I was sad to not be there, but the teaching does not seem to be linear, so easy to drop in today and the space they offer feels timeless, so easy to drop back in.

Today the topic was to focus on the theme of being a disciple.  In summary, we covered the quotes that revealed that Christ and Buddha were SEEN as the having discovered the TRUTH, not cuz of what they said.  Also, we dove into the necessity of LOVE for learning to occur, with Christ and Krishna.  This moved towards a discussion of the female disciples and Mary Magdalene.

The Primary quote we continued to reference today From Thomas:
"He who is near me, is near the fire, he who is far from me, is far from the kingdom."

P asked the question so, "Who are the Disciples?"

What are the levels of participation?
Crowd
Disciples
Divine

These exist in the external world as well as us.
How do we recognize these levels in us?

Disciple
the latin root, means to learn, a follower

from Thomas
"I shall give you what no eyes have seen, no ear has heard, no hand has touched, no mind has understood."

Disciple vs Apostle
a disciple is learning and receiving
an apostle is sending forth

You can not be an apostle before a disciple.
Except Paul? He was an exception?

Not all disciples became apostles.

in John, Thomas, Philip
we have stories of the Disciples
We must come to these teaching again and again
in Thomas, the sayings are for the disciples
in Philip: more a community of disciples speaking to each other

Buddha and Christ, teaching to those who are already in the attitude of disciple
Not teaching to convert people

(as Ashley says, Jesus didn't have a Facebook page)

Seen not Heard
Ravi spoke of the Buddha and how he was SEEN as having found the Truth, not heard
he quoted
"they see him coming"
"look at G, he has found the truth"

"The illusion that the TRUTH is conveyed by words" Ravi

and in reference to Christ

John Gospel;
Andrew, was the first disciple,
"Look. The Messiah has come."

Love
"No teaching can take place except in a certain attitude of learning." Ravi
in a state of eros - Love

"Only those who love me, can know me" - Krishna
"I reveal myself to those I Love" - Christ

People do not Follow Jesus cuz it seems like a good idea.

Ravi relayed a story of being in Varanasi to hear Krishnamurti
There was a cook who was also very excited to hear Krishnamurti speak
When Ravi exclaimed surprise at the cooks excitement because Krishnamurti will be speaking in English which the cook did not understand, the cook replied,
"What has language got to do with it"

The Teaching is a MUTUALITY

even those who became disciples were scandalized by what he was saying.

"there are many more things i had wished to tell you , but they will scandalize you.'

"You did not choose me, i chose you."

"He who is near the fire"
To be near a teacher is not a bowl of cherries
There is constant demand
"Far from me, far from the kingdom"

Ravi brought up Judas and the question of how Jesus allowed him to be with him for so many years.
The notion that he did not know is ludicrous because of Jesus's sensitivity.  So what is going on there?

Again, the mutuality:
"Relationship is not only that he knows Christ/God, but that HE IS KNOWN.
"As i should know, i will be known."

Female Disciples
There was a break and Priscella took over to discuss the Female Disciples
The idea that they were all men, comes from the list of canonical gospels
and the Da Vinci painting
and of course there were more than 12

There were women who followed Christ, were with him and receiving his teaching

Again, Priscilla, offers the invitation to become a disciple

in the Gospel of Phillip
"3 who always walked with the lord"
Mary M, his mother Mary and her sister
His mother, sister and companion

There was a little fuss in the room around Mary M being the same as Mary of Bethany.
This fuss almost never happens when we are having a discussion about Buddha or Krishna or Patanjali.
This grip on the stories was interesting to witness.

What is the womanly quality of a disciple?
mother, sister, companion

the historical data is fragmented
"to imagine that we can be definite is silly."

@ the Cross, when Jesus was crucified
those 3 women were believed to be there

Mary Mother
What is the vehicle that can give birth to this level of being? In the World? in Us?

Invitation/Demand/ for our spiritual birth
Quality of purity

Ravi offered the relationship of Annie Besant and Krishnamurti as a parallel

Priscella offered for us to connect to the Agony associated with a son's crucifixion
Michaelangelo's Pieta


We have ordinary biological relationships, and relationships on another 'higher' level.

"Whoever does not hate his mother and father cannot become a disciple of me..."

"My kingdom is not of this world"

How do we keep these 2 Levels in dynamic Balance

Ravi told the Samaritan Woman story and how his view of her as a devoted disciple vs his friends, Armstrong's, (a cheerful slut) almost broke up their friendship.

This story is an example of Christ's vision of one's essence
(similar to Ramana story of his followers being upset when he allowed prostitutes and others to enter)

And about Mary
Martha and Mary of Bethany
"clearly followers of Christ"

Story of Mary washing Christ's feet in expensive perfume and then wiling them with her Hair
Judas remarked, "why this waste?"
Jesus said, "let this be".  He accepted what she is honoring.  Himself as a symbol.
The suggestion that "this money could be used to feed the poor"
And JC's response, "The poor will be with you forever."

about MM and JC, "clearly a close relationship."
Christ would often kiss her.
This offended the other disciples
"Why do you love her more than us?"

G of Phillip: reconciling what appears as opposites.
Balancing of the masculine and feminine energies

in the Christina Mystical traditions, it is often argued that between Mary and Martha, Mary had the better part.
Mary - in devotion and at Christ's feet
Martha - service while cleaning, cooking, etc.

yet Meister Eckhart has an entire essay arguing that Martha had the better part,
"Is it possible to engage in action while in a state of contemplation?"

G of Phillip: Christ loved Mary more and used to kiss her often

G of Mary: discovered pre 1900 and fragmented

Section where Peter is saying to Mary:
"Sister, we know he loved you more....tell us the words of the Savior...that we do not know..."
M says, "what is hidden from you, i will proclaim to you" and she sets up to report the vision...but its lost.

Peter becomes angry and doubts her, "did he speak with a woman and not with us?"
M replies, "do you think i thought this up myself and i am lying?"

And jealousy and bickering begin.

Ravi brought up the sadness that these being feel when we do not understand.
He referred to the "wounded doe" look of Krishnamurti.
Thomas, "Jesus said, 'Let him who seeks, continue seeking until he finds...when he finds...he will become troubled."

It is WOMEN who witness Christ's Birth, Incarceration and Resurrection.

I asked the question about Mary as his primary disciple and the one who drew most of the teachings out and if Ravi could discuss it in the context of the Indian Shiva and Shakti.
He pointed out that the relationship is upside down between West and East.
In East, the masculine is the quiet, still, passive and all movement happens in Shakti.
In West, the masculine is the active and the feminine is the passive.


BREAK for TEA.


Ravi opened and pointed out that these teachings are also in the canonical gospels if one knows how to read between the lines.
John: "this sort of talk is hard to bear, how can anyone accept this?"
JC, "the spirit alone gives life, the flesh is useless, no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by the Father."

TRANSFORMATION
"We all have a feeling that transformation is a good thing as long as we don't have to change." Ravi
Abhinivesha: attachment to the status quo

are we really WILLING?

maria: transformation is not simply a rearranging

FIRE
connection of the FIRE quote and the RIG VEDA
"OM AGNI" the first verse
the first priest - the one who works for others
Agni - the symbol for transformation, the lord of sacrifice

no sacred occasion in Hinduism without fire
Agni - root of the word ignition, ignite

in regards to different interpretations:
"good idea to not be so sure"

The fire
self knowledge, reflection
but danger of being burned, singed
demand that is created when coming near a real teacher

JC spoke to 1000s, but very few willing to follow
and almost none of the disciples stayed around
disheartened and dispersed
the three Marys were at the Cross

note that Easter time is the most sacred event
Ravi suggested that no matter where is his, he can feel an injection into the world stage

Luke, chap 12 v8 - 5
"to him, much is give, much is demanded..more will be asked..."

We must not be fooled that JC came for Peace on the Planet
"i have come for dissension"

Kabir
"A teacher is like a potter, supporting the pupil from the inside and beating him from the outside"

Ravi noted the relationship between Krishnamurti and Mary Z

Suffering
"i have a baptism to undergo...not of water, but of fire and truth."
sometimes translated as "spirit and Truth"

Fire, Spirit and Truth
logos - the word

Batam (in greek) - immersion in Suffering

in the entire Biblical tradition , particularly Christian and Judaism, there is much suffering
"for the discerning, there is suffering everywhere."
Patnajali, "suffering is built into change"
1st Noble Truth in Buddhism, "Life is Suffering"
Book of Jobe

but, can suffering be useful?

If we can intentionally sacrifice and undertake suffering, it can be good?
Basis of Christian doctrine?
Vicarious atonement

it is the meaning of being chosen, selected

Rabbi Hileb, "God offered this choice to every nation and the Jews were the ones foolish enough to accept it"

Anointed, chosen

Paul, peter and Steve
Each one of then crucified or stoned to death
Why would they follow HIM?

"Many are called, few are chosen"

Prepare them to willingly accept suffering
if its possible let this cup pass me by

Question of loving the Whole World
the Sun shines for everybody
divine presence available for every body

John says, Lord, I love YOU
"if you love me, you will obey my commandments, then i will love you as the father loves me and i will dwell in you as the father dwells in me."